Reclaiming Sovereignty in Theatre with Murielle Borst Tarrant

Murielle Borst Tarrant: So one of the frustrating things is it's easier for a non-Native person to direct Native people. Right? No one questions it. No one questions it. I'm talking about white directors to direct Native plays. Someone like me, my mother, other directors who've been in this industry for a very long time, if we're asked to direct anything outside of doing Native plays, we get major pushback.

Why is that? Why isn't there equal equity for us? I think that's really important to talk about. If they're going to talk land acknowledgments then we need to seriously start talking about, what are you doing beyond land acknowledgments, right? I hate to bring it up, but what happens is a lot of these theatres think it's okay to do land acknowledgments and then they don't do programming in the season. They don't do community outreach. They do a Native play and then no one's there and they go by the regular audiences.

We're not involved in the EDI. We're not involved in it sometimes. When someone goes to EDI when there's a problem in a production, what happens is the EDI person says, "Well, I don't know how to help you." You're supposed to be able to help us when a non-Native director says something racist. Why aren't we in these rooms, right? So those are the very frustrating parts of all of this. I don't think that we're isolated. I think a lot of BIPOC people feel this.

Yura Sapi: You're listening to Building Our Own Tables, a podcast produced for HowlRound Theatre Commons, a free and open platform for theatremakers worldwide. I'm your host, Yura Sapi and I'm the founder of various organizations and projects including a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, a six-hectare farm and food sovereignty project, an LGBTQ+ healing and art space. And I've helped numerous creatives, leaders, and other founders unleash their excellence into the world through my programs, workshops, and coaching services.

In this podcast I'm showcasing the high-vibration solutions for you as a visionary leader to implement into your own practice and thrive. Stay tuned this season to hear from other founders who have built their own tables for their communities and for the world in this evolutionary time on earth. You are here for a reason and I am so honored and grateful to support you on your journey. So stay tuned and enjoy.

Do you ever feel lost in your cultural equity work? Maybe as an artist yourself, feeling the effects of different marginalizations and wanting to overcome these types of limitations and blocks or frustrations around being in the industry or maybe you are at a predominantly white institution, a space that is in this mainstream, feeling the blocks of wanting to get moving forward and not really seeing this change. This is the episode for you.

Murielle Borst Tarrant shares her incredible wisdom. Being an intergenerational Native theatremaker from New York, she's the founder of Safe Harbors NYC which is an arts initiative that focuses on the development and production of Indigenous performing arts in New York City. Safe Harbors is building this understanding of Native American methodologies in performance that become this cultural liaison to non-Native theatre artists in the city proving how we're really stronger when we include more Native voices, combat these stereotypes, and support Native communities.

Murielle and Safe Harbors are really active in policymaking conversations and approaches to cultural and socioeconomic issues. I'm so excited for you to dive into this episode and see yourself reflected, see maybe some of the problems that you've voiced or have never been able to voice, and also open the gateway to the solutions for overcoming these challenges, seeing the light at the end of the tunnel in terms of what is coming for us, what is already here, all supported by the past and our ancestors and the history five thousand years ago of what was on this land.

So enjoy this wonderful episode and it's been such a pleasure to be with you on this season four of the Building Our Own Tables podcast. Before we get into this episode, go ahead and hit subscribe on this podcast. This is the best way to stay updated on new episodes and it helps build a thriving planet where all beings experience joy and harmony with each other and Mother Earth. So go ahead and hit subscribe and keep this good energy flowing. Welcome, Murielle to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here.

Murielle: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

Yura: I'm really looking forward to getting to know you more and your journey and sharing with listeners who might feel like a previous version of ourselves in this journey of building our own tables. I'm starting off this season asking everyone if you were a superhero, what would your origin story be? What is that pivotal moment that really led you to forge your own path and build your own table?

Murielle: I think my origin story really is when I graduated from college and I went on tour with my family from Spiderwoman Theater, my aunt and my mother were talking to me and they asked, “did I know what this play was?” “Did I know what that play was?” This is separately. This is before I went on tour with them after graduation and they said, "Oh, you are in need of a real education on theatre."

That really opened my mind like, "You should know who this is. You should know who ..." This was beyond getting an education. It was learning on your feet on how you do this type of work. How do you write and how do you reference? If someone references you as a person of color in this industry that you should know those references.

You don't have to go by those references. You are making your own work, your own way. This was what was told to me, "You're making your own work your own way in your own style, so you do not have to go by the mainstream western theatre paradigm. What you can go by is, 'This is my work. This is a story I'm telling,' and stand by it." So that would be my origin story.

Yura: Yeah. Can you take us through to Safe Harbors NYC and how that ended up being where you are now and building this?

Murielle: Okay. That is a real origin story of a fantasy novel. I wrote a fantasy novel and a few of them in my spare time. I wrote four of them. One of them was about this place. It was a reaction, writing fantasy, was a reaction to what was out there. So you would see these non-Native writers writing about our stories or they'd be on this land and there was no one here. So vampires were able to take over and no one cared, and shapeshifters were ... I used to say to myself, "Boy, aren't Native vampires and Native shapeshifters, we would be really upset if European colonizers, shapeshifters, and werewolves and vampires came here. Wouldn't we fight?"

This is the origin story of Safe Harbors. It just came to me writing this story. So what if all of the Native shapeshifters met this special place for them and European shapeshifters weren't allowed in there? They met in this underground tunnel that's a club and it goes through centuries. But one of the things that they say when they need help is Safe Harbors, and they yell that to the main dude and then they can give them Safe Harbors for the night and everything.

So that's the origin story of Safe Harbors because I still am very interested in, what is a safe place for Native Peoples as artists? We don't always, but we try to have safe places emotionally, spiritually, and sometimes for abuse we try to have that. But in theatre, a lot of times what happens is there's not a safe place to create. There's not a safe place to be wrong. There's not a safe place just to try something out. That was the initial idea with me and my late husband, Kevin Tarrant, was how do we make a safe place?

Now Manhattan to us has always been a safe place. If you go back five hundred years, stories have been told, or five thousand years. Let's even go further than that, then, back than that. The story I was told by Oren Lyons was like, "Manhattan has always been a gathering and a safe and trading place. Sometimes different tribes or nations who did not get along, they would leave that outside of Manhattan on the island and there would be all these different fires of different encampments and everybody would meet here and to talk in one council fire."

I love that idea. No one has a time machine. No one can go back four thousand years. But if you would go by traditional storytelling then we say, "Yes, there's an element of that." So I've always thought if we go another level, Manhattan would be a safe place for people to, sometimes in times of struggle could be able, a place to talk and do those things and economic trade for sustainability."

So that was the whole idea between Safe Harbors. If you see our logo, you see the skyline of New York City, but then you see a canoe with two people in it and you don't know if it's female or male, but they're coming into and there's a story behind it, right? The interpretation is you take that story.

So Safe Harbors New York City comes from that element. Creatively, when we get together or when an artist says they would really like to try something, I take it upon myself saying, "Okay, let's try it." I'm not going to say it's right or wrong. I'm going to say, "Okay, this is what we can do to make it different." I love to expand in that. Even if someone wants to read something and wants it to go to Broadway, that's cool with me. Let's sit here, let's talk about it. Let me invite the people, read it, but there's a safe place there. Right?

If someone wants to read something and they don't want anybody there, they just want five people for a screenplay, okay, let's read it. We'll invite them. It's safe. You won't be attacked in this harbor that I have created. That is why I believe in making your own table as you put it, because you have to build on that, and you have to build from how you're taught, not the way someone puts on you.

Yura: Wow, what a beautiful story and just so much intentionality in the space you've created. I feel like that really makes it easier to know, why is it that you're doing what you're doing? What are the values around it? Just so much clarity on if someone comes to you with something that is fitting exactly what you're offering, it seems really helpful to have that grounding, that understanding of what it is that you're doing and why.

I definitely feel that energy of Manhattan in spaces and pockets that we've created. This past weekend was at a gathering with the Indigenous Journalist Association, and we got to connect with different Indigenous people representing their communities, some from around the world. It definitely felt like this safe place where we could all share our story and also share information and strategies around how we can keep building.

So I think that was so beautiful what you shared and that, yeah, it's still here and that energy of the ancestors are still pulsing through our veins in that way of being able to find these spaces of safety and of coming together to really have these conversations and share wisdom and knowledge and resources in that way.

Murielle: And safety comes in different ways, right? There has to be an artistic safety that we have. We are dictated so much by the western world on how theatre should look, feel for us. If we combat that with, "This is what we want to say, how we want to say it and build it," that's the whole idea. How do we do Natives, Indigenous, Tribal Nations' approach to even decision-making of running a company, especially a nonprofit when there's all these different things that happen and hierarchies and you see a patriarchy? But how do you do it your way and how do you use your traditional methodologies for it to work?

Yura: Yeah. Yeah. For me when it comes to hierarchy, I've really tapped into nature and the wisdom of the different systems we feel and see on the planet, and also looking at the universe and in our body. Just really seeing how there are all kinds of systems and structures that have already existed for so long and that we can actually tap into that wisdom.

So for me, our organizational structure is a tree. So looking at the board of directors and myself as the founder and the CEO, part of the root system and the top root, the strongest root there, moving up into the tree and into the trunk as the people who are really holding it up, doing a lot of the work internally and externally-facing on the bark. And the branches are people, kind of consultants and advisors and coaches. The leaves are our audience and clients and the fruits are the artists. So the really exciting fruit of everything that comes with the work we do in the art.

Murielle: Also, think of it too is when you have consensus and people don't understand this, traditional collective consensus is that everyone has a say. Everyone has a say. It's a long process. I, as the head of the organization or as a director, I take in what everybody has to say. Sometimes I can be wrong, but you have to convince me that I'm wrong.

I say, "Okay, I wasn't seeing it this way," but I have to remember also when I am working on a piece and everyone has a collective consensus on where they think this thing should go it's my job to figure out, "How do we stay on the river if we were all in one canoe? And if we take it from that."

I see sometimes rapids ahead. Not everyone else does, but that is the idea. "Okay, sometimes you have to make some of the hard decisions," and that is the lesson. I hate to use hierarchy because it's such a Western European word, right? It's so hard to say that because you don't want to say we live in hierarchies, but we're not speaking in our own language, right?

So that's probably the best interpretation of how we do things, on how leadership works, on how when you are an elected person within your group, to make these decisions. I can, like I said earlier, I can only go by the way I was taught, and I was taught by traditional leadership and I bring that into everything that I do, including when I'm directing.

Yura: That's so powerful. Definitely able to include feedback from everyone. Sometimes it can be difficult because not everyone maybe feels that they can give that feedback, especially having been in other spaces where that isn't the case.

I think for me too, it's something that I'm getting better at is really being able to feel completely comfortable with saying that I'm wrong or that I don't know. Really the power that comes with that because when we don't know or when we are wrong, we are able to acknowledge it, but then it's like when we do know and when we are right, it is really right.

Murielle: It's really right. You're all trying, especially in a play, right? You're all trying to get this going. You're trying to get it sometimes on its feet, it's being directed. You're trying to get it into production and there's all these different variables. But at one point and I think that's what people don't understand, there's no discussion at one point.

At one point, we made this decision, I'm going for it, we're going. When there's questions asked, then you explain. You do that three times and say, "Look, I told you this three times. This is the decision we have made collectively so this is where we're going."

Sometimes you have ... That's what I think what happens is that when we talk about this way of doing things, because it looks so easy people think it's a free-for-all, and there's a lot of discipline on being a Native person with our religion and the way we think of things, how we do things. That takes a lot of discipline and the western minds sometimes don't see it that way. They think we're just out there doing this stuff and we're making it up as we go along.

No, this took a lot of decision-making. This took a lot of planning. This took ... It's like a harvest where you have the seeds, you plant the seeds, you have it the right season, you put it in, it grows. You have to take it out. Then you got to have people come in and take it away. What are you going to do? You give some of that to your community. You have to do some of these for economic growth.

I think that's how Western society doesn't understand that, right? We are very good at this because this is what we do.

Yura: Let's get into that a little more, speaking specifically about some of these aspects of the western theatre industry, the dominant, the current, the mainstream, the power-held theatre industry of the current moment. What aspects of this theatre industry frustrate you the most and how do you envision overcoming these challenges?

Murielle: I think a lot of it is our sovereignty. We are talking sovereignty on, we have a right to tell the stories the way we need to tell them, right? But what happens is when you look at some percentages, you look at the percentage account that is with the Dramatists Guild and I saw those percentages.

Now they didn't name us, but it was women of color. If you look at a pie, it was like one little slate, the tiniest slate. It was very disappointing because included in that slate was African American, Asians, and Native people. So then if you break that down after that, we are like a 1 percent or 2 percent of things that are being produced on Broadway, things that are being produced in general. We're talking about regional theatres, we're talking about universities, we're talking about casting. Those things are not coming.

Yes, we have some successes in television. Yes, we've had some great successes. Reservation Dogs, Rutherford Falls. There's probably going to be some other show. And we see that, right? But what more can we do? We saw Lily Gladstone be nominated for an Academy Award. We saw Killers of a Flower Moon being nominated for everything, but the powers that be at times doesn't want to recognize our work.

So one of the frustrating things is it's easier for a non-Native person to direct Native people, right? No one questions it. No one questions it. I'm talking about white directors to direct Native plays. So someone like me, my mother, other directors who've been in this industry for a very long time, if we're asked to direct anything outside of doing Native plays, we get major pushback.

Why is that? Why isn't there equal equity for us? I think that's really important to talk about. We see this all the time. They talk about every other marginalized group. Maybe if we're lucky we see an Indigenous/Native person, woman maybe. So those are very frustrating things, right?

I think it's important that what we need to start seeing is if they're going to talk land acknowledgments then we need to seriously start talking about what are you doing beyond land acknowledgments, right?

I hate to bring it up, but that is really because what happens is a lot of these theatres think it's okay to do land acknowledgments and then they don't do programming in the season. They don't do community outreach. They do a Native play and then no one's there and they go by the regular audiences. We're not involved in the EDI. We're not involved in it sometimes. And when someone goes to EDI when there's a problem in a production, what happens is the EDI person says, "Well, I don't know how to help you."

You're supposed to be able to help us when a non-Native director says something racist. Why aren't we in these rooms, right? So those are the very frustrating parts of all of this. I don't think that we're isolated. I think a lot of BIPOC people feel this. I think that even the word BIPOC at times ghettoizes us in this way. Why can't you say Black/Native Indigenous peoples of color? You know what I mean? Why don't you just say queer, transgender, gay? Why can't you just say all those things? Why does it have to be in this language?

So that has been a fight, a lot. So because you're fighting so much to even get your voice in the room, sometimes as a Native artist you are spending so much time fighting that you don't get to do the work that you need to do, your personal work as an artist, right?

So those are extremely frustrating things. What's also very frustrating is the constant battle of us being included with the equal equity of pay. No one's talking about that, but we need to talk about that, especially in New York City.

Now, most artists in New York City live beyond the poverty level, but so do Native people. So if those are white artists who are living beyond the poverty level, what are Native artists, how are they living? So that is the frustrations, right? But sometimes you can't fix the whole world of theatre and you have to understand that if you want to do your work. You have something to say and you want it to get out there.

So there's always this constant battle for me. I can't speak for all Native people. I can only speak for myself and my organization and how I see things out there because I am in these rooms and I hear the conversations and I see what is happening and how you have to always insert your voice into these conversations and sometimes it's a very lonely place.

If you don't have a seat at the table then you are most likely on the menu.

My suggestion sometimes to a lot of theatres, western theatres and a lot of organizations, mostly theatres that I deal with is that you should have more than one Native board member to avoid tokenism. You should have more than one Native person on staff. If you're going to ask for consultancy, pay them. These are people who are very important within our communities. We're talking about chiefs and clan monitors and leadership. Don't call them a week before and say, "Hey, can you do an opening," if you don't have a personal relationship with them. This should happen a month in advance, like you would a council person. That needs to really be acknowledged.

Someone told me this, "If you don't have a seat at the table then you are most likely on the menu." You have to really think about to mobilize people to sit at these tables other than one person, right? You need two to three Native people sometimes on a board. You have too many Native people on a board, but meanwhile on a white board there's nothing but white people. How is that equal equity? So those are some of the frustrations.

Yura: That's great advice. I think anybody listening who wants more advice especially in these organizations, definitely go ahead and check out Murielle's consulting services as well because they're really helpful. Yes, pay first. Pay for this, but thank you for that information for us because I think too, for a lot of us who are maybe at that point already of saying, "Yeah, we're fed up with the way the system works and we are going to just go ahead and build our own tables so that we aren't on the menu."

So it sounds like, yeah, there's this awareness of just knowing all of these factors at play, all of these things that could be things to watch out for and things to know that are happening. Then being able to have that space to just release it in a way to say, "Okay, I'm not going to get overwhelmed by all of this advocacy work, basically that is being asked of me because I am in this position where I am the only one in certain rooms or maybe even not feeling that I'm being selected to be in rooms. Not letting it overcome me. Not letting it be the downfall for why I am making art and why I'm doing this important profession and kind of calling around storytelling. Representing the world outwardly through art making."

Are there any other tips or advice you might give to people like that?

My advice to everybody is know your craft because it's hard to build a table if you don't know how to hold a hammer or you don't know how to put in a nail, right?

Murielle: For theatremakers is that there's no one way, but also to know your craft, whatever that is. Know your craft at directing, know it in acting, you know it in playwriting, stagecraft, costumes, there's lighting, there is stage management, there's producers. Not everybody has to be on stage in the creative process, but within the theatre realm, my advice to everybody is know your craft because it's hard to build a table if you don't know how to hold a hammer or you don't know how to put in a nail, right?

Know your craft is really important if you're going to build your own table and understand that craft and love that craft. I love acting. I love directing. I love writing. Because of that I consume my life with that and understanding that craft, but understanding other people's craft too, other people's methodologies and techniques. It might not be yours, but you can appreciate it and look at it and maybe take a little bit of theirs and say, "Is this compared to what I'm doing?"

So there's not just this one way of doing things. There are some things that are standard. How do you approach a play? How do you go about it? But there doesn't have to be this one European way of fitting rounds into squares all the time.

Back to my frustrations too is that the dictation of what white society wants to hear from us sometimes is frustrating, right? They want to hear a nice Indian story and everything's solved and reconciled. No, we're not always singing and dancing. Sometimes they don't want us to be funny and sometimes we are very funny. What does it mean to be a New York City Indian to live in New York? What does that mean in trying to maintain culture? How do we talk about that? How do we talk about the Native doctors?

Yura: Wow, it definitely sounds like it feels almost like a simple shift, really. It's actually not that hard in a way. It's not this very complex math problem that we'll have an answer for. It seems like there are answers. All you have to do is just start inviting us and having us more present. And then also we can look at critics. So making sure we have Native critics in the room and everything.

It's exciting for me because especially the other advice you gave around really know your craft because there's this aspect of almost just keep going, keep doing what you're doing and eventually people are starting to realize that actually this is the solution. There's this fear around the theatre industry not being relevant anymore, the financial implications of that. But like you said with television, they're already starting to realize.

So it seems like almost just it's going to be, and it already is just the shift of being able to see, "Oh, actually this is the way to go. This is the stories that we want to be sharing that are different, and that is exactly what we need right now." So it sounds like there's this beautiful opportunity to go ahead and keep doing what you're doing and then be ready for that opportunity to come through.

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Death is really transformation. I think there's definitely this fear of this idea of death, but really it does. It brings a new birth, it brings a new beginning. Like you said that there is something that is dying, and that's just part of the change. That's just part of what's coming next.

Murielle: Yeah. To think about it, to belong to the Native theatre movement, what does that mean, right? What does that mean? Our stories being in the room, right? How do we avoid ... I was some place and it was like, it's very hard to avoid tokenism and I don't think it's that hard to avoid tokenism. I really don't.

I think that if you have more than one opinion, if these organizations, whatever they are want us on there then there should be more than one opinion and especially when it comes to Native issues. I think also that we have to remember, especially I speak about New York City more because I'm from here and this is where my home is. When we have people voicing their expertise who are not from these lands here or any lands, that is a problem too, right?

Someone who just moved to New York four or five years ago, do they have the same voice as someone who grew up here, right?

Yura: Yeah.

Murielle: Should they be involved in the decision-making of what the community is doing? I think that's important, that too. It's not just New York, it's everywhere.

Yura: That's really powerful to make sure that you have someone representing the different experiences of what it means to be in a specific place. Yeah, you get so much more out of it in the end. Ultimately, we have to remember too, this relationship building it is not just for a one-show thing or a one-event thing. We know this, relationships can last a lifetime and it's really about the development of this kind of exchange and flow, and it's just so beautiful to keep building upon this type of new entity that comes when we are in a relationship with someone.

Murielle: Yes, yes.

Yura: So my final question for you is reflecting on your journey, what has been the most rewarding aspect of carving your own path and building your own table?

Murielle: Well, training people is really wonderful because when they get it, whether that's actors, directors, writers, stage managers, allies, building that table so they understand where you're going and support you for where you need to go. Supporting a play where it needs to go, supporting the work. Building my own table was really understanding this. Someone told me this and I didn't understand it until now, and it was, "We don't want to be invited to the party. We want to be the party."

Yura: That's powerful. What's next for you? What do you have going on at Safe Harbors and with your own work?

Murielle: Right now at Safe Harbors, we're working on a piece called Feasts of Ghosts and that's in New York City and it should be taken on a national tour for 2025. It's being produced by La MaMa Theatre and New York Theatre Workshop and Safe Harbors. It's an outdoor piece. It is a piece about how we deal with death, dying, and spirits that are here.

I'm a very recent widow. This year is my four-year anniversary of my husband's passing. That's a powerful time in our culture. What does that mean for those other spirits that don't rest and have to do things over and over again? The reason why it's called Feast of Ghosts because it was something my husband said was that, "We need to explain to people why we feed. No one's understanding why we feed our spirits. Let's show it to them."

It's all these different vignettes of these different spirits doing something over and over and over again from the land. The audience has a piece of candy, some water, popcorn, and they give it to ... They want different things and the guy tells them, and then they tell the story. So it's five or six stories. I am the main director, but most of the people I mentored are directing some pieces.

Then I go back and then we talk about if they need help and I come. These are people who've shadowed me for a long time. It's also training at the same time of what Safe Harbors does. So a lot of our ensemble work is what we're really good at, and on our feet writing, and there's a lot of writers. It's really co-created. We have the acting ensemble, but it's really co-created by the three writers.

My one husband who's passed, who is Kevin Tarrant, my daughter Josephine Tarrant, and Nicholas Billey, and we are the conceptual creators, and then we bring it to other people, and then we write it down and we figure out how to mold this. That is the work we're doing.

The following project, I have a one-woman show called Tipi Tales from the Stoop and it's about my life growing up in Brooklyn and being the only Indian, the only Native person on the block in all-Italian neighborhood. So those are the two main projects I'm working on right now.

Yura: Wow. Incredible. I can't wait to see them, especially the first one on Feasts of Ghosts. Just sending you so much love and support and really happy that Kevin Tarrant gets to be still with us in this way. I'm really excited to see that show and experience everything that you're offering because it feels like this combination of theatre and storytelling, but also ritual and culture and this healing too that we almost get to bring for audiences and people who experience that.

The fact that it's going on tour so it just seems like this whole tour of healing support and reconnecting with the spirit world and ancestors that are supporting us in everything we're doing right now. So thank you so much for all of your wonderful work. How can we follow, support Safe Harbors NYC?

Murielle: Okay. So we have a website called Safe Harbors NYC. And also, you can get a hold of us on Facebook and that's where we post in our Instagram, and that's when you'll find out more about Feasts of Ghosts, which will be in October for Indigenous Peoples' Day where we can talk. Then November we're talking about Tipi Tales, Native American Heritage Month, and trying to put that all in there. Thank you.

Yura: Thank you. Yes. Signing up for your email list, following to get notified on everything. Thank you so much, Murielle. This was such a joy and pleasure.

Murielle: Yes, it was. Thank you.

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